Am I being ripped off ?

[Anna Kettle]

A couple of months ago my Vauxhall Combo van refused to start when I was parked in the middle of nowhere. Road rescue got me started and told me that the starter motor had failed and that I should drive directly to a garage where I could get it fixed, because I wouldn't be able to start under my own steam until it was fixed. I did and it was.

Then last month the same happened again. I called out the garage who fixed it first time and they took the van away and fixed the problem. They said it was the 'contact switch' and my new starter motor needed reconditioning. A second bill has just arrived for £230.

If I were to miss an underlying problem in my own work so the finish work failed, then I would not expect the customer to pay for my mistake. I don't know much about vehicle mechanics so I am paying the garage for their expertise and they want me to pay in full twice over. They have now told me that a failed contact switch is "quite a common fault with Vauxhalls".

Am I being unreasonable to expect a substantial discount on the second bill?

Anna

 

[Denley]

No, Go and slap the service manager.

Explain it to him in a letter and ask for some satisfactory resolution before you take action.

I'm sure he'll buckle.

Andy

 

[Grunff]

A couple of months ago my Vauxhall Combo van refused to start when I was parked in the middle of nowhere. Road rescue got me started and told me that the starter motor had failed and that I should drive directly to a garage where I could get it fixed, because I wouldn't be able to start under my own steam until it was fixed. I did and it was.

Then last month the same happened again. I called out the garage who fixed it first time and they took the van away and fixed the problem. They said it was the 'contact switch' and my new starter motor needed reconditioning. A second bill has just arrived for £230.

If I were to miss an underlying problem in my own work so the finish work failed, then I would not expect the customer to pay for my mistake. I don't know much about vehicle mechanics so I am paying the garage for their expertise and they want me to pay in full twice over. They have now told me that a failed contact switch is "quite a common fault with Vauxhalls".

Yes, you are being ripped off. I'm not totally clear on what they mean by 'contact switch' - this could mean your ignition switch, or (more likely) the solenoid contacts.

Either way, it's clear that first time they replaced the starter motor it wasn't the cause of the fault. And why a new starter motor would need reconditioning after a month's use is anyone's guess.

Before paying the bill, ask them for a full breakdown of the work which was done, and the reasons for it, during the first and second visit. You are perfectly entitled to that. Then either take it to someone you trust, or post it here for comments.

 

[Funkyman]

A couple of months ago my Vauxhall Combo van refused to start when I was parked in the middle of nowhere. Road rescue got me started and told me that the starter motor had failed and that I should drive directly to a garage where I could get it fixed, because I wouldn't be able to start under my own steam until it was fixed. I did and it was.

Then last month the same happened again. I called out the garage who fixed it first time and they took the van away and fixed the problem. They said it was the 'contact switch' and my new starter motor needed reconditioning. A second bill has just arrived for £230.

If I were to miss an underlying problem in my own work so the finish work failed, then I would not expect the customer to pay for my mistake. I don't know much about vehicle mechanics so I am paying the garage for their expertise and they want me to pay in full twice over. They have now told me that a failed contact switch is "quite a common fault with Vauxhalls".

Am I being unreasonable to expect a substantial discount on the second bill?

Anna

Take it up with trading standards, you are being taken advantage of because your a woman.

Dave

 

[Alan (archive)]

I second this advice.

I suppose it is possible you could need the second chargeable job but it is extremely unlikely.

What sort of garage is it?

A main dealer ought to buckle easily if you talk to the Service Manager. If you get no joy there write to the Managing Director and copy the letter to the Service Manager.

If it is a smaller garage ask them about it. You could suggest they get a second opinion/justification or discuss the matter with a Vauxhall Main Dealer and then talk to the dealer yourself.

 

[Doki]

Take it up with trading standards, you are being taken advantage of because your a woman.

I wouldn't say that. I've known blokes who admit not knowing how to change a wheel. I reckon you could try it on with a good percentage of people nowadays and get away with it.

 

[Mike (4)]

I would also say yes, you're being ripped off, but only maybe. It's important to know the background of the original replacement starter motor.

If you bought a new starter motor from the garage and it only lasted a month before it needed reconditioning, then the garage should go back to their supplier and insist on a free replacement, and the charges for their labour to swap it again should go to their supplier, not to you. I can't see how any reasonable business could argue this point. It isn't your fault they supplied a sub-standard part.

If you bought a used starter motor first time round, then it might only have had a short warranty and it could possibly require reconditioning now. However, the garage must have told you that when they first supplied it - if they didn't, then it's reasonable for you to assume that it was a new part and would have twelve months warranty as any new goods sold in the UK must have by law. This applies unless you agreed beforehand that they could supply you a used motor, and their original bill should have shown (a) that it was not new, and (b) how long the warranty would last. I would say that if their bill didn't show it was used and/or short warranty, then the 12-month warranty should be assumed.

Another caveat is if you sourced the starter motor yourself, and passed it to the garage to be fitted. In that case, if it goes wrong, I would say they're fully entitled to charge you for their time in diagnosing, removing and replacing the starter motor.

I must admit I don't know the Combo van, but even for a reconditioned starter motor the price seems a little steep, and I don't know how much the original bill was. Last year I bought a recon starter motor for my Vauxhall Firenza (relevance: same engine as the Bedford CF van with 2.3 OHC, quite a beefy starter motor) and the guy at Partco was quite apologetic when he had to charge me £110 plus VAT. Also I had a starter motor replaced at an Audi main agent on my old Audi coupe, and that also didn't cost me £230, even at Audi main dealer labour rates.

It would be interesting to hear how you go on with this.

I must stress I have no legal knowledge, but a reasonable experience in arguing with people in the past.

Mike.

 

[C H]

My 2 cents on this one as an autoelectrician of some 12 years or so is that the most likely cause of failure of both of these starter motors is the ignition switch having stuck resulting in the motor being kept engaged with the engine after the key has been released. if the garage checked to ensure that the crank wire went dead as the key is released after finding the first one burnt out then there is little else they could have done. It wouldn't be common practice to just change the ignition switch on the off chance that it was faulty. They are perhaps guilty of not making you aware of the possible causes of the original failure and the possibility of it reoccurring, the fitter will in all likelyhood have not been aware of the cause of failure of the original unit, assessment of this is beyond the capabilities of the majority of fitters these days.

 

[Conor]

A couple of months ago my Vauxhall Combo van refused to start when I was parked in the middle of nowhere. Road rescue got me started and told me that the starter motor had failed and that I should drive directly to a garage where I could get it fixed, because I wouldn't be able to start under my own steam until it was fixed. I did and it was.

Then last month the same happened again. I called out the garage who fixed it first time and they took the van away and fixed the problem. They said it was the 'contact switch' and my new starter motor needed reconditioning. A second bill has just arrived for £230.

IMO you shouldn't have to pay at all. Get trading standards involved.

 

[steveb]

"Mike" lifted the trapdoor, peered around and wrote:

if
they didn't, then it's reasonable for you to assume that it was a new part and would have twelve months warranty as any new goods sold in the UK must have by law

Just to clarify this small point in otherwise sound advice

A twelve month warranty, on anything, is not, and never has been demanded by law. It is, however, custom and practise for many items.

The law simply requires that an item is of "merchantable quality" and "fit for purpose".

A new item like a starter motor (or recon.) failing after a month is not of "merchantable quality", therefore fails the test.

By the way, a new car must be rejected within a couple of weeks if a refund is to be demanded. And only then for major faults.

steveb

 

[A Lee]

A couple of months ago my Vauxhall Combo van refused to start when I was parked in the middle of nowhere. Road rescue got me started and told me that the starter motor had failed Then last month the same happened again. I called out the garage who fixed it first time and they took the van away and fixed the problem. They said it was the 'contact switch' and my new starter motor needed reconditioning. A second bill has just arrived for £230.

If I were to miss an underlying problem in my own work so the finish work failed, then I would not expect the customer to pay for my mistake. I don't know much about vehicle mechanics so I am paying the garage for their expertise and they want me to pay in full twice over. They have now told me that a failed contact switch is "quite a common fault with Vauxhalls". Am I being unreasonable to expect a substantial discount on the second bill?

Not knowing the full facts but:
If they were ordered (by you) first time to find the starting fault, and it has re-occured, then they should really do it free of charge, or very cheaply.

If however you took the car in, and told them it needed a new starter motor first time (as you had been advised by the breakdown people), then no, they are not to blame for subsequent failure of other things. All they were ordered to do was fit a starter motor, and they did it. Sounds like 'C H' is right about this in his post above, as your 2nd starter has burnt out.
Alan.

 

[Tom Burton]

I would also say yes, you're being ripped off, but only maybe. It's important to know the background of the original replacement starter motor.

If you bought a new starter motor from the garage and it only lasted a month before it needed reconditioning, then the garage should go back to their supplier and insist on a free replacement, and the charges for their labour to swap it again should go to their supplier, not to you. I can't see how any reasonable business could argue this point. It isn't your fault they supplied a sub-standard part.

If you bought a used starter motor first time round, then it might only have had a short warranty and it could possibly require reconditioning now. However, the garage must have told you that when they first supplied it - if they didn't, then it's reasonable for you to assume that it was a new part and would have twelve months warranty as any new goods sold in the UK must have by law.

Really... last time i look statutary right where 28days, some things arnt designed to last longer,

time in diagnosing, removing

and replacing the starter motor.

I must admit I don't know the Combo van, but even for a reconditioned starter motor the price seems a little steep, and I don't know how much the original bill was. Last year I bought a recon starter motor for my Vauxhall Firenza (relevance: same engine as the Bedford CF van with 2.3 OHC, quite a beefy starter motor) and the guy at Partco was quite apologetic when he had to charge me £110 plus VAT. Also I had a starter motor replaced at an Audi main agent on my old Audi coupe, and that also didn't cost me £230, even

at

if its the 1.7D it sounds about right, the motor is expensive, and its an absolute PIG to get at!

 

[Anna Kettle]

Thanks for your comments everyone.

The jury is still out as to whether the charge is reasonable. It was a new, not a reconditioned starter motor. I wrote to the garage querying the second invoice (a local garage) and they replied suggesting that I speak to a main dealer. CH seems to come down in their favour.

The invoices have quite a lot of detail on them which I don't understand, so at the weekend when I'm home again and have the invoices by me, I'll post the detail and maybe someone will be able to shed light.

Anna

 

[Mike (4)]

Really... last time i look statutary right where 28days, some things arnt

designed to last longer,

I was under the impression any new goods sold here had to have at least 12 months warranty, however I've just looked on the dti site at the sale of goods and in fact there's no requirement for any warranty at all - it's at the manufacturers discretion and in addition to your statutory rights. Sorry for the confusion.

Mike

 

[Mike (4)]

I've just read up on this on the dti web site and you're quite right. There's some confusion over what is a reasonable time in which to reject goods, but other than than any makers warranty is a bonus.

Mike.

 

[Rich (archive)]

Don't forget that the parts they take off are still yours and not theirs they should let you have them back as proof that they have changed something!!!
Rich

 

[Tom Burton]

"Mike" wrote:

> Really... last time i look statutary right where 28days, some things

arnt

> designed to last longer,

I was under the impression any new goods sold here had to have at least 12 months warranty, however I've just looked on the dti site at the sale of goods and in fact there's no requirement for any warranty at all - it's at the manufacturers discretion and in addition to your statutory rights.

Sorry

for the confusion.

ahh we both checked today, i checked my retailers handbook

"customers are entitled to a full refund ( by the means they paid for the original item i.e. card cash. s/l ) in the event the goods are, faulty, defective by manufacture, unfit for the intended designed purpose, unsafe, or missrepresented"

bla bla about not being entitled by law to a refund if the goods arnt faulty Then goes on to say

"provided the above is carried out within 28days"

 

[Conor]

In article <bilffr$a74ar$>,
says...

bla bla about not being entitled by law to a refund if the goods arnt faulty Then goes on to say

"provided the above is carried out within 28days"

Completely irrelevent. Sale of Goods Act.

 

[steveb]

ahh we both checked today, i checked my retailers handbook

"customers are entitled to a full refund ( by the means they paid for the original item i.e. card cash. s/l ) in the event the goods are, faulty, defective by manufacture, unfit for the intended designed purpose, unsafe, or missrepresented"

bla bla about not being entitled by law to a refund if the goods arnt faulty Then goes on to say

"provided the above is carried out within 28days"

There appears to be some confusion here.

The Retailers Handbook, whatever that is, is probably written with the Sale of Goods Act in mind, but would carry little wieght.

The Act lays down NO minimum or maximum warranty periods. It isn't actually concerned with warranties at all. It simply seeks to make RETAILERS responsible for the products thet sell. "Fit for purpose" and of "merchantable quality".

The periods during which the provisions of the Act may be enforced are decided by case law. And all County Courts are bound by decisions in higher courts (The High Court) in this instance. They have ruled that new vehicles must be rejected within a few weeks, following major problems, or the Dealer may insist on a repair.

A few months and up to a year would be considered reasonable for a product to last, for most other things. The reason that longer than a year is unusual (from the Courts point of view) is that the manufacturers can reasonably argue that it is difficult to accurately ascertain the operating conditions over an extended period.

All other warranties are at the discretion of the Retailer or Manufacturer. They are enforceable by law because they form part of the contract you make when you purchase the goods. You cannot sign away your legal rights (by small print, for example) but you may reduce your rights if you accept a repair instead of replacement.

Second hand goods are covered too. But if you buy something "As seen and tested" that's it. Test it because you will not have much comeback. Auctions are the same. You get an hour to discover mis-leading statements or major undisclosed faults. Don't waste it.

steveb

 

[Richard Marsh]

Any item sold in UK has 14 days to be returned if customer is not happy with it. Most items are actually 28 days. THIS IS IF YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND!

However, if an item has "failed to last a reasonable amount of time" as seen by a "reasonable person" you have every right to a replacement with no extra cost or full refund. A guarantee is not worth the paper it is written on. This is said with 7 years retail experience.